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Keturah Hickman's avatar

This is a beautiful piece, and it feels so different from your other work, in a sort of humble, sweet way. I just attended an event where a woman spoke on submission and Shakespeare. I think it was a bit of a kink for her, but it reminded me of a dear friend who told me her thoughts on submission. Although she is secular and has no religious ties, she has taught me some of the most Christian lessons and said that good submission is a gift. It's something that a woman gives to a man because she respects and trusts and loves him, and it is the same for us with God. It is not obligatory as much as voluntarily. So yes, I think exorcism is essentially feminine. But that's the point. Women show men how it is we're all to be with God.

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Audrey Horne's avatar

Thank you so much I really appreciate that Keturah <3

I don't like to talk about things like submission or desire because they have a sexual connotation, but they are such important concepts outside of sex. Submission is a beautiful spiritual gift that all must learn.

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Kristin's avatar

Just found your Substack and LOVED “Pants.” I’m also reconsidering and studying much of the “Christian” teaching I’ve received. I wanted to share with you that I think male translators and teachers have shaped our reading of Paul so much that we are not really reading Paul so much as a caracature of him. Solid hermeneutics reveal something very different. Biblical scholar Lucy Peppiatt (& others, but she’s my fav) have given me an enormous amount of insight and relief. Go read her stuff! Also Richard & Catherine Kroeger. Looking forward to reading more of you.

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Mxtyplk's avatar

both partners have to submit to each other to make love work. Or submit to the relationship you might say, but that involves surrendering to who the other person actually is.

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Ramya Yandava's avatar

Your finding it hard to talk about love is very relatable—I often feel this way too: "Almost all the talk of love I encounter, in written or spoken word, feels shallow and embarrassing." I love how honest this piece is and how thoughtfully you examine your faith.

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Rev. Fr. Raphael Barberg's avatar

You have a beautiful and honest way of publicly wrangling with important things.

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Audrey Horne's avatar

Thank you so much, that's very kind.

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Tatyana Zinger's avatar

I reject the premise that, “If someone cannot submit to God first, how can they understand love?”

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Audrey Horne's avatar

i wrote it as an exaggeration, to emphasize my distaste at dramatics… i do absolutely think that all can understand love and to understand love is to know God

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Tatyana Zinger's avatar

Got it, I see the vision - I have just heard variations of some Christians saying a similar thing (‘can’t know true love without Christ’s love’) and it sets off a fear of that judgment or lack of understanding!

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Raul I Lopez's avatar

Very enjoyable piece!

About love.

Having kids allows for a new kind of love, deeper than anything that I had experienced before.

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Mxtyplk's avatar

yes kids help you get it. It suddenly feels extremely natural to put another person's needs at least equal to your own. (I say equal rather than above because people are so naturally selfish, me included, that even making another person's needs truly equal to yours is an enormous thing).

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9A's avatar

I think you might enjoy the thinking person's horror novel A Head Full of Ghosts by Paul Tremblay. It uses the frame of an exorcism documentary to investigate the bigger picture of what was going on in a family during a time of crisis.

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Fiona's avatar

I always think this in AA- submission to a higher power is an act of great bravery, trust, and strength <3

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John Wilson's avatar

Great blend of some disparate ideas. "Submission" is such a loaded word today... yesterday we'd be happy to be slaves to Christ... hopefully... sincerely?

Paul is annoying. A straight reading of him is clearly contradictory to even the most casual reader of epistles. I've enjoyed experts who are willing to revisit texts in original languages, they suggest our ESV (yuck, NLT ftw!) is probably off script:

Cynthia Westfall is one such expert, I share the GP article because it wants to dismiss her critique. (That's how you know it's the good stuff!) - She might be wrong, but her premise is spot on.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/paul-and-gender-a-review-article/

When you do choose to love someone in marriage, my experience is mutual submission is truer to the instruction of the apostles. If Christ is the 'head' he leads as a servant. That's totally in contrast to complementarian theology.

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George Granade's avatar

Interesting piece.

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Ryn Corbeil's avatar

While they are not full of it, most men DO have doubts, at least the men to care about. When you meet anyone who claims to know for sure, turn around and run like hell. I don't doubt your father told you that.

In my 72 cis-het years, the women and men I most respect and love are those who step forward while not being certain of anything, except that they are loved and they love.

I'm talking here about your 'greater Love' -- agape. The sooner we replace the romantic connotation of 'love' with compassion and empathy and wonder and sacrifice and yielding (submitting?) to that unknown energy -- most people say 'God'-- the sooner we can start the real conversation: what does it mean to care for one another, and is that why we are here?

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